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There is one thing Baptists and Lutherans have in common. They think Adam's sin remains after baptism.
We Catholics think it leaves residues after baptism. The "law of sin in the limbs" is this kind of residues, but is, after baptism, not a sin in itself, it is just coming from sin and giving occasion for sins. Personal ones.
So much on original sin/Adam's sin.
Now, for the practical problem. The uncle is, I take it, still alive.
That means he can still be baptised and saved.
Normally children cannot be baptised against the will of parents or those who are legitimately in their place. There is an exception when a child is in danger of death. Now, part of the reason for the main rule is that children usually grow up and can later decide to be baptised if parents didn't want it for them.
I don't know what to think of this uncle, if it is just a question of cerebral paresis, this should not prohibit him from an adult understanding of what is involved, though it may impede the physical act of expressing it (Stephen Hawking is communicating through one muscle).
But if it is sth like Downs, too, then he will normally speaking never grow up, and others than he would have to take the decision for baptism.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:33 pm
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The penitent thief had been circumcised during OT, while it was valid.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:28 pm
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I am a Baptist as well, and I totally agree that salvation can be achieved without baptism. See the Thief on the Cross, he had no baptism yet Christ said that they would meet in Paradise.
Secondly,
We try to be a place that is welcome to many people. While conversations of differing faiths are allowed, they must be in a respectful manner. Telling someone that a deceased (Or ill) loved on is in/going to Hell is /never/ respectful. Even if you sincerely believe it to be true it does no Earthly or Heavenly good to bring grief to someone, especially when nothing could be done about it now.
And finally,
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
In this context "Those that have rule over you" are the admins and the mods. If you do not wish to respect our rulings them I'm afraid that this might not be the place for you.
Statistics: Posted by Lucy Took — Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:18 pm
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Furthermore, the comment that some people would get a bad surprise about their relatives after death was inconsiderate and tactless. I will not tolerate that sort of remark in the forum sections I mod.
Jaygee, your story was touching <3 Jesus truly knows best. He works everything out for our good. Thank you for sharing this
Statistics: Posted by Tenethia — Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:53 am
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Christ said otherwise, when talking to Nicodemus, see John chapter 3.
"Neither does circumcision,"
Not under New Law, no, no longer. But if it didn't under old law, why was Moses' son threatened with death unless circumcised? Which is why Zippora duly circumcised him.
"nor baby dedications."
There on this I will have to agree.
"They are outward signs of separation unto God."
Did you say "separation unto"? From the "mass of perdition" (idolaters back then, non-Christians or indeed rather non-Catholics now), yes. In a way.
But it is first and foremost an outward sign of an inner grace given at same time to whosoever offers no obstacle.
"While infants have no say in these matters (as it would be the parents' decision to dedicate them in whatever way), it is still up to these people (ie: the infants-once-they've-grown) to individually decide for themselves to accept God's saving grace and to follow the Lord and dedicate their lives to Him."
IF they grow up they can decide to keep or to reject the grace given. WHILE small, they stay in grace. Some Catholic theologians consider that infants baptised among heretics like Anglicans still don't become Protestants until later adopting conscious errors - they are Catholics as long as very small. That is by the way the position of my conversion godfather.
Btw, he grace of baptism is different from a total dedication of one's life, like monks or nuns do, or like priests do.
There is the difference between 30-fold fruit, 60-fold fruit and 100-fold fruit. Baptism prepares for all or any, but only obliges to 30-fold.
"So what does this mean for our young who die prematurely or those who don't have the mental capacity to make (or at least communicate) such a decision or those who have not had the gospel brought to them yet?"
A baptised child who dies before age seven is buried with a white burial ceremony, since presumed to have gone directly to Heaven. No black, no Dies Irae. But since they were baptised it is wrong to say the Gospel wasn't yet brought to them. VERY wrong.
"I believe that God is gracious as well as just and it is He who makes that call, baptism or no."
An infant dying without baptism is not burning in Hell flames. But not going to Heaven either. See a Catholic dictionary on Limbo. One theologian considered if parents had longed for their child to be baptised but they didn't get the chance (as with still born or these days even with infants dying the hours after birth). The priest who told me said he had found no support for that position previous to this theologian (Cajetan, btw).
Those who either wanted baptism but couldn't get it before dying, or who would have wanted it if they had known God wanted it, supposing they had a general idea of God and of wanting to do his will, but no access to Gospel, are at least according to some theologians (like Pope St Pius X) supposed to have been on the path to salvation before dying.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:12 am
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So what does this mean for our young who die prematurely or those who don't have the mental capacity to make (or at least communicate) such a decision or those who have not had the gospel brought to them yet? I believe that God is gracious as well as just and it is He who makes that call, baptism or no.
Statistics: Posted by Ariel.of.Narnia — Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:04 am
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In the OT there was a juridical exoneration from original sin, so you could get to Abraham's bosom in Sheol if you were circumcised at day eight, while waiting for Christ to come down there and give you sanctifying grace and open Heaven for you between Crucifixion and Resurrection.
Now it is in Baptism that we are purified from Adam's sin, and so that also can be done on day eight - or earlier, if there be fear of premature death.
Unlike OT sacrament, the NT sacrament actually directly gives sanctifying grace and actually opens Heaven.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:08 pm
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And anyway, Jesus said, "Go and make disciples and baptize them," not "Go and have babies and baptize them."
Do Catholics not believe in original sin?
Statistics: Posted by jesusgirl4ever — Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:56 pm
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Or yours will.
Get a bad surprise due to Adam's sin?Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:01 pm
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Acts 16: [28] But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. [29] Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. [30] And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?
[31] But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. [33] And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately. [34] And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God.
Haydock comment:
Ver. 33. Was baptized, being first told what he was to believe, and do. (Witham) --- Hence Catholics draw a very plausible argument for the baptism of infants, as it is very probable there were some infants in the family. See Estius, in different location.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:59 pm
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Which is why we do baptise infants. If Adam's sin is enough to condemn, Christ's justice must be accessible for their salvation too.
Statistics: Posted by hansgeorg — Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:45 am
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