Jadis and Tash

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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:24 pm

Hmm, if you put it that way, it does make more sense. I know nothing about Lilith beyond Lewis's note about her being "Adam's first wife", something I definitely don't believe myself. Though I do think your proposition may well fit the mythology (spiritual aspect) of the Narnian world....
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by hansgeorg » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:18 pm

CSL and JRRT seems to have loved to speculate on "what if the fall hadn't happened?"

Narnia is a land where men bring their fallenness from England. But Narnian creatures as such are not fallen.

In Perelandra, he shows a scenario where a fall is averted.

And JRRT of course had elves represent how humanity might have looked if it weren't fallen.
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by Lily of Archenland » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:06 am

I always assumed that the Lilith aspect of Jadis was a tribute on Lewis' part to his sort-of literary mentor, George MacDonald - or an acknowledgement of the inspiration from him - a powerful vampire-pale woman in another world who tempts the hero, seeks to destroy local children because of a prophecy, and rules from a beautiful but corrupt city with a faint resemblance to Charn, with an implied power-alliance to a demonic force? Some obvious connections, yeah. Also, since George MacDonald's Lilith had a running theme of traveling across worlds and remaking your identity and your home there, with an implication that there were beings who could walk between many worlds, it would make a strange sort of sense if an otherworld-Lilith who might or might not be connected to Jewish folklore either did some worldhopping at some point, or encountered another world-traveler, and... well, contributed to the Charn genetic lines of magical power. <.< Or established herself as a goddess to be worshiped in Charn.

*ahem* Speculation about the Lilith/Jadis connection aside -

Does Jadis NEED to be Satan, as such? Tash as something demonic, or at least playing a demon-like role in the world regardless of if he's exactly a fallen Angel, makes sense. But Why can't a world have more than one evil? Jadis is a corrupt ruler - one who will do anything to maintain her power, and who is allowed to have her way for awhile while the people are asking "how long?" before God comes in to save. If you want Biblical parallels, there are plenty for that Type of a person - Pharaoh, Babylon, even the Assyrians for a time - can an evil ruler oppressing the people of God just be an evil ruler oppressing the people of God? :)

Different thread, perhap, but Elves - weren't so much a perfect species, as a species which stood or fell on a case by case basis rather than by a single act of rebellion. When they were good they were very good, and when they were bad they were horrid. ;)
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by jasmine_tarkheena » Sat Feb 12, 2022 11:01 pm

There is a newly created YouTube channel called Into The Wardrobe (which if you haven't seen, I would recommend checking it out). He touched on the theories of the origins of Tash. One was that he may have originated from Charn. There is even a possibility that Jadis allowed herself to be possessed by Tash. It would have explain that they both claim the rights to the their lawful prey (Edmund and Rishda notably).

When you read about where Tash makes an appearance in The Last Battle, it's like, "What? He was real?" I think it was all worth the wait. And he only has one line the whole series- "Thou hast called me into Narnia Rishda Tarkaan. Here I am. What has thou to say." It's as Rishda was playing with fire, using the name of Tash randomly, though doesn't believe in Tash. From a religious aspect, Jesus had dealt with religious leaders who claim to do things for God. He even pointed out that they actually belong to Satan. So the idea of Rishda doing things in the name of Aslan but actually realizing he belong to Tash is the same idea as the religious leaders saying they're doing things for God yet they actually belong to Satan.
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:15 am

That’s a good insight, Jasmine!
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by jasmine_tarkheena » Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:40 pm

I think another theory about Tash that was touched on in the Into the Wardrobe was that he may have originally been a star, like Ramandu and Coriakin. He may have been very beautiful, yet somehow thought he'd like to be worshiped by all and fell down and was turned into a monstrous creature for punishment.

You might recall that Satan used to be an angel named Lucifer. At times in the Bible, "stars" are referred to as "angels". He was very beautiful yet at one point, he thought he could be like God and rebelled. God had to kicked him out of Heaven, and he became known as Satan.
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by Lily of Archenland » Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:36 am

I have two favorite theories about Tash. One is the Fallen Star angle, which makes sense to me thematically. But something that makes more sense to me with his aesthetic and his ties to Calormen, is that he was a localized god/nature spirit - a spirit of the desert like the river-gods in Narnia are spirits of the waters - who got too big for his britches and started wanting the glory of being worshipped and served by humans in his territory.
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by jasmine_tarkheena » Sat Aug 06, 2022 5:47 pm

Lily of Archenland wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 6:36 am
I have two favorite theories about Tash. One is the Fallen Star angle, which makes sense to me thematically. But something that makes more sense to me with his aesthetic and his ties to Calormen, is that he was a localized god/nature spirit - a spirit of the desert like the river-gods in Narnia are spirits of the waters - who got too big for his britches and started wanting the glory of being worshipped and served by humans in his territory.

I think I'd go with the Fallen Star theory about Tash. He may have thought he'd be like the Great Emperor Over The Sea or Aslan. He may have been very beautiful. Possibly, if he fell from the sky, he was most likely stripped of his position and beauty, transforming him into the monstrous creature. However, he may not have been stripped of his power.

When Calormen was established, he may have started demanding worship, and temples of Tash were built. Maybe the question is, was Tash his actual name or did he have another name prior? Did he always have the four arms or did two new ones started growing when he fell?
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by Lily of Archenland » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:03 am

...I'm still divided on which theory I would like better. Partly because of his aesthetic, and partly because I like to think of the *other* Calormen gods and goddesses as hyped-up nature spirits, and it would fit for him to be as their leader. But.

If the fallen star theory were true... I have kind of an unnerving and yet maybe beautifully tragic idea about that other pair of arms.
I think they didn't grow when he fell... they shriveled, and lost their feathers.
They were originally his *wings*.
Bird-person Star, and all.
...the rotten smell, though - *that's* a result of his falling.
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Re: Jadis and Tash

Post by jasmine_tarkheena » Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:31 pm

Lily of Archenland wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:03 am
If the fallen star theory were true... I have kind of an unnerving and yet maybe beautifully tragic idea about that other pair of arms.
I think they didn't grow when he fell... they shriveled, and lost their feathers.
They were originally his *wings*.
Bird-person Star, and all.
...the rotten smell, though - *that's* a result of his falling.

I didn't think about that. I would think that he was once very beautiful and was transformed into a monstrous creature as a result of his falling; the foul smell may have been something of his corruption as well.
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