Too old for Narnia

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Too old for Narnia

Post by Swanwhite » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:08 pm

This is no conjecture on the possibility of being to old to read it because that would be ridiculous.
What I'm thinking of is how the Pevensies do not get to come to Narnia any more when they grow older. At the end of Prince Caspian Peter says:
"I'm pretty sure he means you to get back some day. But not Su and me. He says we're getting too old."
This is a statement that can sound terribly unfair. I think there's a reason the film decided to change it to the interpretation "You've learned all you can from this world" or whatever it was they said.

Now obviously Narnia is not Neverland. There are lots of grown ups in Narnia and the surrounding lands. Lots of people even go to that world as grown-ups, the Telmarines, Frank and Helen. Though those are people who are meant to stay for some reason or other.

Another funny thing is that the Pevensies themselves have grown up in Narnia, but that didn't make them too old for Narnia while they were reigning.

What I'm thinking is that Peter is probably paraphrasing what Aslan said in a very simplistic way. I have some conjectures, but I should do my homework now and I'd really like to hear what you think.
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by jesusgirl4ever » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:38 pm

Yeah, that's what the film said. I think maybe it was because Aslan wanted them to know Him in this world, but He knew that if they were waiting to return to Narnia, they would never look for Him. I know that if I was waiting to return to Narnia and to Aslan I wouldn't look for Him either in this world. (Of course, I already know His Name in this world. I should, seeing as how it's in my screen name.) That is kind of strange, though, how some grown-ups can stay, and the Pevensies even did during the Golden Age, but then they got too old. I never thought about this too much before I saw this thread. Thanks for helping me think a little bit more. :)
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:38 pm

I liked the film's version of the "too old" line, though I'd gathered that sort of interpretation from the book anyway.
Very good point, Jaygee!
I think Narnia serves as something of a "school", so to speak, for the children who adventured there: the things they learn there are to be applied to their lives in their own world. I don't know if Lewis noticed it when he wrote things like the "too old" line or Aslan's "another name" line, but it seems (to me, anyway) that it's not just speaking to just those kids, but to the readers too. Something along the lines of, "You - yes, you, reader - you're to do the same. Live the lessons you've learned on this adventure and apply them in your own lives. Narnia is a momentary thing, just as it is for these fictional children, and should point you to the realities of your world. Aslan goes by many names: go and find Him."
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by jesusgirl4ever » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Another good point, Ariel. :)
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by miniver » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:39 pm

Well, a good point, Ariel, but I confess I will not be following it. I already knew the other name before I read the books (as many of you did); in fact, the first time I read LWW as a wee sprout, I knew what was afoot when Aslan came back after his death. I've read the books regularly since then and plan to continue. It's not a substitute for me. And, frankly, I wish Lewis hadn't made the choice to shut the kids out as they got older. That particular element has always bothered me in books. For one thing, as a child it made me reluctant to grow up, as if I would lose my essence somehow. Now that I'm an adult, I realize that (a) my character is not a function of my age, and (b) growing up has its own blessings, and you can continue to savor many of the things you loved as a child. (Some you need to give up. Like those awful fake-flavored chewy candies. All they do is pay for dentists' children's college educations.)

So, being the subversive I am, I often imagine other visits to Narnia for the Friends, or visits to other worlds, or things they can do here in this world. After all, they have all this training.

Please feel free to disregard this opinion. It just seems to work for me. Too old to get to Narnia? I say fie on that.
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:39 pm

That's pretty good, Mini. I didn't (and still don't, haha) like growing up myself. Things are so much simpler as a child, for one. :)

I did not mean that Narnia is a substitute (far from it!). I guess I should have expanded my thought a little further: Narnia doesn't just point to the Name above all names, but to the lessons that we can apply, both with other people and with God (eg: "I am the Lion").

And look at Digory and Polly. They were aged and they still loved Narnia. And they didn't get the whole schpiel about never going back; they just never did.

Certainly never too old for Narnia, no matter what age. :D
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by miniver » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:40 pm

You were clear, Ariel, don't worry. And you brought up an interesting way of looking at it. I love your idea of Narnia as a school--and I agree that it is one for all of the children who go there and also for its readers. I like your new point about Polly and Digory also.

I look at the Narnia books several ways. One is by taking in and savoring the profound works that Lewis created. Isn't it wonderful how rich and ever-new great books can be?

Another way is by looking at the elements the author uses to create the books, turning them around in my mind, savoring some and being a bit frustrated by others. (The latter reaction is very rare, I hasten to add.) I've noticed that two elements that bother me the most are actually things that Lewis took from more conventional children's stories. One was the ending of LWW, where the story stops rather abruptly with the children coming home to the nursery, as it were, just like any E. Nesbit or Mrs. Molesworth story. If you look at that ending the way Lewis wrote it, there's no emotion at all from the kids--no monumental sense of loss or shock or displacement. It's just neat and tidy. It's as if Lewis wasn't thinking about Narnia at that moment. He was thinking about how one ends a story for children. (He didn't know his own strength!) My theory (and again, please don't feel compelled to agree with me) is that Lewis was still learning his craft as a children's writer at that point, and he felt a certain loyalty to what already existed, instead of realizing the freedom he had as a pathfinding author.

(There is one rather amazing result of this ending that no one, not even Lewis, brought out: because the Four were taken from the Golden Age and sent home, they could be there centuries later to save Narnia once again. Talk about providential!)

The other element that I don't love is the "you're growing up" one. That's a common nineteenth-century sentiment, probably going back to Rousseau, now that I think of it--the glories of childhood as a sacred state. It's a thought that echoes through Peter Pan and even The House at Pooh Corner. Well, of course there's a glory in innocence, but growth is also sacred, because, as is pointed out in First Corinthians 13, you can grow in perception as you age, and you see things you couldn't see before. Whatever Lewis's motivations for using that element, I don't find that it's necessary to the essence of the story. The idea of becoming like little children is important, as we know, but I think that's not a capacity we lose as we age.

And besides, as Jaygee points out, they already were older as Kings and Queens in Narnia.
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by Ajnos » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:40 pm

This is a fascinating question, thanks for bringing it up. I like the various points people have made. For some reason it's never particularly bothered me, and I think I always saw it in the way that I think Lewis (chiefly) intended it - as a plot device: he didn't want to keep writing about the same characters indefinitely. If Susan and Peter hadn't been prevented from returning, we would never have got to see Eustace and later Jill have their own adventures. There's also perhaps the fact that he was writing children's stories with the idea that he wanted children (and perhaps children of a certain age-range) as the main characters and since his characters were getting older, he wanted to "replace" them with younger ones.

Moving from Lewis' intentions so Aslan's, while working on my story about Susan, I started wondering how the conversation had gone that Aslan had with Susan and Peter, and decided to write a one-shot about how it might have transpired. One thing that came to me as I was thinking about it was that these stories are taking place during World War II. While the Pevensie's second adventure in Narnia had brought and end to oppression and a short-lived war in Narnia (the rightful King was on the throne and everyone had seen Aslan and believed in him again(, in our world, things were much darker and needed people who understood the truth to be there to help the world through such a dark period. A quote from my one-shot:
The Lion continued then, explaining why it [their not being allowed to return] must be so. “You children have been called to Narnia, twice now, for two reasons: for the sake of Narnia and for your own sakes. For the Narnians, that you might bring them hope and freedom. And for yourselves, that you might learn to have faith.”

After a short silence, Peter spoke up. “Faith in what, Aslan?”

Aslan looked into his eyes, as though baring into his very soul. “Not in what, son of Adam, faith in whom? You have both served me well in this world. But now you must learn to serve me in yours.”...

“Aslan," [began Susan] "does that mean…”

“I Am. You know, Susan, that I Am. You have always known this. And this is why I need both of you there now more than here. Your world is going through dark days. Some of the worst are yet to come, though a period of relief is not far off. I need men and women, boys and girls, who can stand for me in the days ahead. Narnia has been restored again, and the truth will be made known throughout the land. But in your world there is dire need of people to stand for what is right, just and true. I need you there.”
These are obviously my words, not Lewis' and very possibly not what he had in mind, but I think it works as a potential explanation for their not being allowed to return.

(If you're interested, you can read my full "conversation" here: http://www.hedgepickle.blogspot.co.uk/2 ... g-you.html
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by miniver » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:41 pm

Both those ideas are wonderful, Ajjie: (1) that Lewis wanted to write about more characters, and that he wanted to write about characters of that age, and (2) that Narnia was giving them training that was desperately needed in the dark world of wartime Britain. I'd definitely agree with each one.

Your conversation between Susan and Aslan is lovely, and I'll look for the rest of it on your blog. Thanks.
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Re: Too old for Narnia

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:41 pm

@Mini: Ah, I see what you're getting at now. That makes a lot of sense. :)
@Ajjie: Oh, yeah, I remember this! Very good point yourself. :)
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