The Problem of Aravis

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SYorickson
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by SYorickson » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:46 am

Really good thoughts, everyone! Thanks for such good topic Lily.

I don't think of the claw marks on her back as a punishment, but as a lesson taught in love. I believe Aslan disciplined her in order to reveal her flaws, because he loves her and wants her to learn compassion and humility. And since he knows her heart entirely, he knows the precise act of discipline which would truly teach her those lessons.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Swanwhite » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:46 am

Yes that is it exactly! That is what his punishments always are for his children. It's a gift. It's a blessing in disguise. :) What she did could be excused and ignored with human reasoning from outward appearances, but He looks at the heart and cares too much to let the disease go untreated.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Trisha » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:47 am

Swanwhite wrote:....He looks at the heart and cares too much to let the disease go untreated.
That's a beautiful way of putting it Swanwhite. It was only too easy for me to say that Aravis's punishment was justified, and that it would serve Asheesh right if he was held responsible for Shasta and Bree escaping. But it seems to me that most of the lessons Aslan dishes out are rather painful and uncomfortable. Such as Bree being put into the fearful situation of being chased by a lion and having his pride in being a Noble Talking Horse seriously crushed. And (in another book entirely) Eustace being turned into a dragon in order to learn not to be such a spoiled brat, and having his dragon skin torn off by a lion in order to be made human again....OUCH!! I know my greatest fault all too well and I shudder to think what kind of lesson Aslan might have in store for me.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by christ-follower » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:48 am

Aravis changed during the journey to Narnia. I think part of what Aslan told her was basically, "Look, this is how much you've changed." Before her journey she was willing to have another person beaten without thinking twice.
The scars that Aslan left there, well the book never mentioned any scars, but you can put it together that she did receive some. I think God leaves certain reminders on our bodies, of terrible things we have done in life. And when we see those reminders, we remember to never do them again. Aslan gave Aravis those scars, so that she could look at them every day, and so she would be able to build up a better character towards other people.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by miniver » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:51 am

This is such an interesting question, and one that made me think a good deal.

I don't know what side I come down on. Here's something that occurs to me, though. If we think about Lewis rather than Aravis, maybe Lewis wanted to remind readers that even "small" people matter, and this servant girl didn't exist merely as a tool for Aravis's escape. Lewis barely brings up this character as a subsidiary plot point during that part of the story, but he doesn't then just let her drop into obscurity. In addition to demonstrating that everyone has a story in Aslan's eyes, Lewis also shows by this situation that Aravis, though we may have come to love her and (if we're female readers) to identify with her, is accountable for her actions. And, as was said earlier in this thread, she's going to be a queen, and she needs to remember to keep all her people in mind.

In this book, until almost the end of the story, Aslan reaches people by action, not by direct appearance and explanation. There's an old saying, "Coincidence is God working anonymously." So what we see of Aslan in this story is what he does. This physical rather than verbal punishment is in line with such an approach.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ajnos » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:13 pm

Wow, big question, and excellent thoughts on both sides.

I think I see what you're getting at, Lily. It's easy to say in hindsight that what Aravis did was wrong, but did she really know that at the time, and did she have no other choice? Sure, she could have taken a risk and told the slave girl. But as long as there was the slightest chance the girl might rat her out to her step-mother, it was too much of a risk to take. Aravis didn't know Aslan yet or that he would work all things to her good if she did what was right and honest. For all she knew, she was on her own in a world where she had to fend for herself since the gods cared little for her well-being.

I think what this question really brings up, is the nature of God (or in this case Aslan) and one of the characteristics we struggle with the most to understand (especially in today's age). God is both holy and righteous, as well as being fair and gracious. He balances both these sides of his character and nature perfectly, but with our human minds, we so often fail to grasp how this is possible.

We see cases like this in the bible, where God seems to be (dare I say?) over-reacting to something. We recognise why he institutes such harsh punishment, because his righteous nature demands it, and yet something about it seems extreme. I think of God threatening to kill Moses' sons because he had not had them circumcised according to the law at birth. We see Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt or Ananias and Sapphira being killed for lying about the money they donated to the church. Yet other, seemingly worse sins, seem to go unpunished.

In life, we often see people suffer as a result of their past behaviour. Sometimes, with reason (it is the consequence of past choices), but we still if God has punished them too much. But I think SYorickson and Swan hit on it when they pointed out that all discipline from God is good. He sees the bigger picture and knows exactly what each person needs to be drawn to him (or drawn nearer to him). In some cases a harsh lesson is required (as was apparently necessary for Aravis), but in other cases, simply a reprimand is enough (like in Edmund's case). I guess it's the same way a good parent knows that sometimes harsh punishment is what a child needs for correction, where as other times a seemingly free pardon, forgiveness without punishment, is a more effective form of correction. It differs depending on individual and circumstance.

We often see pain and punishment that physically hurts as unfair, but God allows them in certain cases because the pain and suffering is only temporary and in the long run, it will prove better for us. He really does do all things in love, and I know I believe this because I trust that he is both just and righteous and gracious in equal measure and for our good and his glory. It doesn't always make sense, but I know what he does is for the best.

As God said to Abraham when he was pleading for Lot's life "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

(hope that makes sense)
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:07 pm

I think I agree with Swan and Talking Raven, if my memory serves me right (though you have raised some points, Lil). We all know that Aravis didn't like that slave nor did she like her stepmother. Sure, part of the drugging could have been a measure of preemptive self-defense, but she also told Shasta, "I'm very glad they should beat her." (To which he replied that that seemed harsh. And while I'm sure he understood something about her running away from Ahoshta, he also understood what it was to be beaten for something one had no control over (such as Arsheesh's random criticisms in his case and drugged oversleeping in the slave's case).) Like others have said, I think Aslan punished her for her motive. Not the running away motive, but the I-know-they'll-probably-beat-her-and-I'm-very-pleased-by-that-thought motive. True, Aravis might have drugged any other slave that might have accompanied her, especially if said slave was a known light sleeper or of the guard variety, but this particular slave was an especially chosen victim. The drug would make the slave girl at least appear to have been negligent (hence the beating). Aravis could have just bound and gagged her, putting all responsibility on herself rather than on the slave.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Lily of Archenland » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:05 am

OK, I will accept the point that Aravis may have been looking at the slave through an eye of entitlement and wanting to see her punished, and that she could have chosen a different potential companion to take the fall for her. But I don't think that binding and gagging the slave would be much of an option, because that would have made it obvious to the whole household that Aravis was up to something, and defeated the purpose of using "I'm performing my sacrifices" as an excuse for a head-start. Can you think of any efficient way that Aravis, if she was trying both to do justice by the slave girl and to make an effective escape, could have distracted the slave from accompanying her in a timely manner without the slave inevitably getting blamed? Sent her on an errand for some forgotten supply, perhaps?
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:37 am

She could have used an errand, yes, but I think that she wouldn't have as much assurance of where the slave would be when (eg: she could come back sooner than expected, she might make contact with another spying slave, etc). Plus, I'm not quite sure the errand-running would avoid suspicion since it was just the two of them on this excursion, meaning Aravis would be alone and "vulnerable" in the middle of nowhere. Granted, these are two girls out in the middle of nowhere, so it may not make much of a difference as far as vulnerability goes.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by hansgeorg » Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:07 pm

If she had taken responsibility on herself by gagging the slave girl:

* a) she would probably have needed to hurt her first (or the slave might have been older and stronger than 12 year old Aravis)
* b) she would have had people after her sooner, possibly, and have ruined the story "Ahoshta" wrote.

As Christians, we should always be willing to, if not justify at least think justifiable the God of the Bible.

As Narnia readers we need not always be willing to back up the moral theology of the books, since CSL might have been mistaken about "what would Jesus do?"

Have you read Don Camillo? Recall the scene when Christ on the Crucifix tells the priest he did basically right to kick Peppone (the Communist mayor) on the behind, because Peppone was expecting that from Don Camillo anyway? Everyone here sure Don Camillo got that inspiration from Christ?

Well, CSL could at times be as wrong, I suppose, as Giovannino Guareschi.

On the other hand, CSL might have been working his intellect around the problem of Purgatory, which he somewhat later perhaps (by the time of Letters to Malcolm) came to believe in.
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