The Problem of Aravis

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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:28 pm

I'm not quite sure I follow, hansgeorg. Could you explain that further?
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by hansgeorg » Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:03 pm

Someone who was not writing the Bible but writing some other book, might simply be wrong about what he considers Jesus would have done or said to an imaginary character.

I might be wrong in my story about Schliemann's dream. Heinrich and the orthodox priest may not have been forgiven spreading the rumour and encouraging it by the priest blessing an icon "here is where Christ appeared to King Priam". They may both have been damned for that.

My story is one in which, whether they are saved or not, they are at least forgiven, because the priest prays that Christ may make the lie a truth and may have appeared to King Priam.

And I may therefore have been wrong about King Priam converting in the last moments before Pyrrhus Neoptolemus killed him. And about King Priam and Hector being saved.

So, CSL might have been wrong in this case. Especially if the servant girl was into forcing Aravis into the marriage.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:34 pm

Ah yes. Trying to write Christ (or God the Father or God the Spirit) as a character is ticklish business for sure. Narnia certainly isn't gospel.

But also, and I only thought of this now, perhaps the physical corrections Aslan gives to Aravis and Eustace are also "pictures" of what God does with us, just as Aslan is a "picture" of Christ. I had a rather dragonish experience a couple years ago myself and really, the best way to describe God's working on me was to liken it to Aslan tearing off Eustace's dragon skin. The Lord has never torn my back or turned me from a physical monster back into a human, but He's certainly taught me lessons in ways that, deep down, felt very much like these.
Basically, what I mean is, perhaps while something happens tangibly in Narnia, besides being a plot point in a story, may, to us, be a depiction of what can happen spiritually.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by hansgeorg » Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:38 am

One point, yes.

And though "Eustace's dragon story" is set in VDT which is not an allegory, the "Eustace dragon story" pretty much is an allegory, except for details that are put in it to fit the general action.

One could also say that:

* anything that happens to us, God either wanted or allowed it to happen (usually for our best, or at least so if we love God);
* and the Lion applying the claws Himself is a picture of that aspect.

Also, one could suspect that CSL considered that Aravis more than certain other girls "needed to know what it felt like" since she was going to be a queen.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by knightofnarnia » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:15 pm

Personally I agree with those who said that Aravis had a wrong attitude. I think we should be careful about accusing C.S. Lewis as misrepresenting Christ as at that stage he had been a Christian for some time and had thought about Christ quite a bit. I believe what we do will have consequences in this life (and maybe the next). I agree with Anjos that God is holy and as Abraham said to God, Shall not the Judge of all the earth judge righteously? (My paraphrase). Also in my opinion Aravis is a very proud or at least a slight air of superiority (even over the fact that it was normal for her to walk in the desert because she had shoes at that moment CS Lewis even makes the comment "Aravis said nothing and looked very prim. Let's hope she didn't mean to, but she did.") Where does she truly beging to change? Partly from the fact that Shastha turns back and partly from the scratches on her back (which occure at the same time). At least that is my way of reading the HHB. Of course no autor of fiction can catch perfectly the character of Christ but I think Lewis came quite close to doing the subject justice.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Lily of Archenland » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:24 am

I'm not saying that Aravis didn't have a wrong attitude on some points - she obviously considered herself superior to Shasta on the basis of riches/class differences at least initially, for example - it's just that I have to wonder how much to blame somebody whose wrong attitudes are tied up in both how she was raised - with her being too young to have much life experience outside of her family's social circle - and being, at the time of her worst actions, in rather desperate circumstances. Aslan - even the fictitious lion - has a better chance of knowing the specifics of her circumstances, and whether pain was the best way to make a point to her, than I do, ultimately. But I guess that it just feels a little severe to me, at this point in my life, that "knocked somebody out to get away from an arranged child-marriage where there were really good chances you would be misused"="God thinks you deserve to have your back torn open." Does that... make sense, at all?
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by knightofnarnia » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:24 pm

Sure you make sense Lily. I guess it depends what angle you look at it. Plus it is even possible that Aslan didn't explain all the reasons. But from a strictly author point of view I think C.S. Lewis wanted to make Aravis totally change in character (like Eustace becoming a dragon) yet also wanted to show that certain actions have consequences (Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira). I have heard over and over again that ignorance of the law isn't innocence. Romans 2:14 and 15 even seems to hint that even those who are ignorant of God's law still have some knowledge of that same law in their hearts. This might seem like a bunch of quotes but I know of no better way to defend C.S. Lewis portrayal of Aslan. Although as I said earlier C.S.Lewis could have made a mistake. But I don't see the need to go down that route.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Lily of Archenland » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:23 pm

So, a time-efficient way of writing visible consequences and a potential catalyst for moral change. In the Doylist, I think I can buy that.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:55 am

@knightofnarnia: I hadn't thought of Aravis in that context; thanks for bringing that up! It certainly is a good argument.
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Re: The Problem of Aravis

Post by HermitoftheNorthernMarch » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:02 pm

It might be more of Aravis' excuse that the girl was just a servant like Knight of Narnia pointed out. Is it "fair"?
Well, it's not as if the children in the other books never were hurt or reprimanded either.

*Digory is made to put the safety of Narnia over his concerns for his mother.

*Edmund gets stabbed by the White Witch which might never have happened if Edmund had just gone with the others to reach Cair Paravel and be crowned kings and queens which we are told would have ended the Witch's life.

*Lucy is reprimanded for waiting for Edmund to get well when she could be helping to heal other Narnians.

*Shasta is also scratched by Aslan, but it is in his cat form, so that's kind of minor, but it was also for mistreating others (cats) in the past.

*Peter almost leads his siblings and Trumpkin into a trap, which he does get in trouble for.

*Eustace has the dragon skin removed.

*Jill is made to learn the signs, but almost gets Puddleglum, Eustace, and herself eaten by giants by forgetting them.

*Caspian and Eustace hit bullies with the flats of their swords while Jill hits them with a whip.

*The children (okay, they were not really children anymore) would also have avoided the train accident in LB if they hadn't been trying to use the rings, which Aslan had told them not to use in MN.
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