Jesus Does All Things Well

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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:44 am

A baby can be baptised, and when baptised believes with the Faith of the Church, Hopes with the Hope of the Church and Loves God with the Love of the Church.

God infuses all these virtues, and it is up to parents and Church to make sure they become more conscious later.

But should baby die before that, the burial is white, one is sure he or she went directly to Heaven.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by jesusgirl4ever » Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:22 am

Not in my denomination (Baptist). Baptism happens upon conversion, not before.

But I do believe that my uncle will be in heaven. Just like I believe my cousin who died the day he was born will be there.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:45 am

*sigh* I am afraid some of your denomination will get some bad surprises about relatives due to Adam's sin.

Which is why we do baptise infants. If Adam's sin is enough to condemn, Christ's justice must be accessible for their salvation too.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by jesusgirl4ever » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:14 am

Or yours will. Show me one instance in Scripture where an infant was baptized.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:59 pm

Very presumably this passage:

Acts 16: [28] But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. [29] Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. [30] And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

[31] But they said: Believe in the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. [32] And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. [33] And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes, and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately. [34] And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, believing God.

Haydock comment:

Ver. 33. Was baptized, being first told what he was to believe, and do. (Witham) --- Hence Catholics draw a very plausible argument for the baptism of infants, as it is very probable there were some infants in the family. See Estius, in different location.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:01 pm

jesusgirl4ever wrote:Or yours will.
Get a bad surprise due to Adam's sin?
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by jesusgirl4ever » Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:56 pm

I always took it to mean those old enough to know what they were doing.

And anyway, Jesus said, "Go and make disciples and baptize them," not "Go and have babies and baptize them." ;)

Do Catholics not believe in original sin?
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Yes, we very much DO believe in original sin, meaning that we are born excluded from Heaven due to Adam's sin.

In the OT there was a juridical exoneration from original sin, so you could get to Abraham's bosom in Sheol if you were circumcised at day eight, while waiting for Christ to come down there and give you sanctifying grace and open Heaven for you between Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Now it is in Baptism that we are purified from Adam's sin, and so that also can be done on day eight - or earlier, if there be fear of premature death.

Unlike OT sacrament, the NT sacrament actually directly gives sanctifying grace and actually opens Heaven.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by Ariel.of.Narnia » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:04 am

Interesting discussion.
But baptism does not save souls. Neither does circumcision, nor baby dedications. They are outward signs of separation unto God. While infants have no say in these matters (as it would be the parents' decision to dedicate them in whatever way), it is still up to these people (ie: the infants-once-they've-grown) to individually decide for themselves to accept God's saving grace and to follow the Lord and dedicate their lives to Him.
So what does this mean for our young who die prematurely or those who don't have the mental capacity to make (or at least communicate) such a decision or those who have not had the gospel brought to them yet? I believe that God is gracious as well as just and it is He who makes that call, baptism or no.
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Re: Jesus Does All Things Well

Post by hansgeorg » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:12 am

"But baptism does not save souls."

Christ said otherwise, when talking to Nicodemus, see John chapter 3.

"Neither does circumcision,"

Not under New Law, no, no longer. But if it didn't under old law, why was Moses' son threatened with death unless circumcised? Which is why Zippora duly circumcised him.

"nor baby dedications."

There on this I will have to agree.

"They are outward signs of separation unto God."

Did you say "separation unto"? From the "mass of perdition" (idolaters back then, non-Christians or indeed rather non-Catholics now), yes. In a way.

But it is first and foremost an outward sign of an inner grace given at same time to whosoever offers no obstacle.

"While infants have no say in these matters (as it would be the parents' decision to dedicate them in whatever way), it is still up to these people (ie: the infants-once-they've-grown) to individually decide for themselves to accept God's saving grace and to follow the Lord and dedicate their lives to Him."

IF they grow up they can decide to keep or to reject the grace given. WHILE small, they stay in grace. Some Catholic theologians consider that infants baptised among heretics like Anglicans still don't become Protestants until later adopting conscious errors - they are Catholics as long as very small. That is by the way the position of my conversion godfather.

Btw, he grace of baptism is different from a total dedication of one's life, like monks or nuns do, or like priests do.

There is the difference between 30-fold fruit, 60-fold fruit and 100-fold fruit. Baptism prepares for all or any, but only obliges to 30-fold.

"So what does this mean for our young who die prematurely or those who don't have the mental capacity to make (or at least communicate) such a decision or those who have not had the gospel brought to them yet?"

A baptised child who dies before age seven is buried with a white burial ceremony, since presumed to have gone directly to Heaven. No black, no Dies Irae. But since they were baptised it is wrong to say the Gospel wasn't yet brought to them. VERY wrong.

"I believe that God is gracious as well as just and it is He who makes that call, baptism or no."

An infant dying without baptism is not burning in Hell flames. But not going to Heaven either. See a Catholic dictionary on Limbo. One theologian considered if parents had longed for their child to be baptised but they didn't get the chance (as with still born or these days even with infants dying the hours after birth). The priest who told me said he had found no support for that position previous to this theologian (Cajetan, btw).

Those who either wanted baptism but couldn't get it before dying, or who would have wanted it if they had known God wanted it, supposing they had a general idea of God and of wanting to do his will, but no access to Gospel, are at least according to some theologians (like Pope St Pius X) supposed to have been on the path to salvation before dying.
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