Summer Challenge 2019 - MN Sharing thread

[Swanwhite]

Chapter 13 and 14

Roosting phoenix
orchard keeper
Eye half-closed,
but not a sleeper.
You’re first a sower,
then a reaper,
and never quite alone.

Golden Lion
holy, wild,
says, “throw the apple
now my child."
All that’s wrong
will be reconciled
and the seed of hope is sown.

[Ariel.of.Narnia]

I’m gonna try to respond to a couple things, but I’m sure I’m gonna forget to talk about some things.

@Ajjie: Great reflection on Digory’s temptations and on Uncle Andrew (funny, we both looked to Matthew in regard to him, but different passages; more on that in my reflection)!
My edition of the book spells Frank’s profession as “cabby”.

@cleander: I like your thought about Digory playing out a “veiled prophesy”. It’s like the “types” of Christ that we can find in the Old Testament. A looking forward to what’s yet to come in the One who can and will defeat evil.
I just kinda accept Frank and Helen’s speech change, haha. Perhaps it’s influenced by their talks with Aslan? I know that I can experience external influences on my speech, whether it was picking up British and Scottish accents while I was there or older and more formal phrasing from a solid week of reading Jane Austen.

@kristi: Personally, I like my action scenes and will admit some disappointment in not getting much in Narnia (and was super excited that the 2005 LWW had a whole chunk of runtime devoted to the battle). But then, action isn’t always easy to write and anyway, perhaps Lewis wasn’t interested in filling his young audience’s heads with violence, so I respect it. Plus, I think he gets away nicely with just, “We’ll catch up with them later, let’s see what these guys over here are up to.” (In the case of HHB, he even excused himself by saying that Shasta’s POV would be useless, so let’s go visit the character who can tell us something worthwhile and see the entire battlefield besides.)
I want to say a TLCer had done a short fix about older!Digory thinking about the bell, but I’m not sure.
I think Jadis vs her sister has many potential paths, yes. Who was in the right? Was there even a “right” at all? Who broke the vow first? What led to the war? Was the sister at all moral? Was she every bit as wicked? Was one of them the lesser of two evils? So many questions!
I have to agree that Frank’s got some kind of Christian background or is a nominal Christian. But, as Aslan says, he’ll get to know Him more.
I think Jadis is too power-hungry to settle into married life. Maybe she would for political advantage, but I don’t imagine it would last long (as in, “I’m pretty sure she’d either enslave or kill the husband”).
I know you’ve brought up the Curse of Adam before (just as I’ve brought up the validity of Jadis’ story), but it remains a good question. Lewis doesn’t get into much detail about it, so we can only speculate. It seems a lot like the Talking Beasts, at the very least, can just live off the land like ordinary beasts (Pattertwig and the LB rodents hoard nuts for the winter, for instance). On the other hand, we see other Narnians working and surely receiving compensation (the Water Rat in LB, the Seven Brothers of the Shuddering Wood, the Dryad servant who attended Jill). The Donkey here brings thistles to Uncle Andrew, and those are weeds (though one might ask if they aren’t the pesky weeds we know them to be). The Bear brings Uncle Andrew a hive that contains dead bees (so there’s death). My thought is that, while Narnia itself is new, the presence of sinful men (the humans) and of evil basically personified (Jadis) is what prevents Narnia from having the perfect, sinless state that our world once had. Sin is passed down from Adam, and why should the people going to Narnia suddenly get to live their lives scott-free of it?


Okay, now for my thoughts:



I wonder what became of the toffee tree. Is there a forest of toffee trees in the Western Wild now? Surely the seeds from Digory and Polly’s breakfast would have yielded more trees (assuming you don’t eat toffee-fruit seeds as with strawberries, pomegranates, or figs).

I think a common thought concerning Jadis’ temptation of Digory is that it’s like the serpent tempting Adam and Eve. And yeah, that’s definitely there, but I think Jadis herself is a representation of the receiving end of that temptation, especially in the result. Jadis went for it and got what she wanted as well as the curse that accompanied it, just like Adam and Eve; conversely, Digory resisted the temptation, though the trial was sore.
Just realized something: witches in Narnia (all two of them that we know of) like to offer co-power. Jadis told Digory that they could rise together as king and queen (which is creepy considering the age difference, though with the whole living-forever thing...). Jadis later tells Edmund that she’ll make him Crown Prince and that he’ll take over once she’s gone (not that she’s exactly planning on ever being gone, but she’s a liar anyway, so what’s one more?). And then the Lady of the Green Kirtle tells Rilian that she will marry him and be his queen. Not only are both witches offering power, but they’re painting themselves as vulnerable, either by speaking of marriage and of being queens (in a time when husbands and kings wielded the greater authority) or by suggesting possible mortality. In tempting and deceiving their victims with power, they also whisper about the idea of being able to control it. It’s a dangerous game and a slippery slope.
(Any guesses as to the role of the phoenix? He’s obviously keeping watch, but what for? Jadis took an apple and he (from what we can tell) did nothing. Is his job just to watch and do nothing else? Or does he have the authority to pass judgement?)

(Good grief, Lewis wasn’t kidding about the bees getting to work like they hadn’t a second to lose! The Bear straight-up finds a hive full of honey, and this is only Day Two of the world! (Also, bees appear to be the first that die in Narnia.))
Oh, Uncle Andrew. His story truly is a sad one. On top of all the other awful things he’s done, he’s literally this close to everything that is good and wonderful, but he willfully blinds himself to it. “Oh Adam’s sons, how cleverly you defend yourselves from all that might do you good!” How mournful this proclamation! You can just hear the longing in Aslan’s voice. Reminds me of Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!” Uncle Andrew is a cautionary tale. Not just because he let his curiosity lead him down dark roads or because he was proud and cruel or even because he’s silly (in the sense in which adults can be silly). The single greatest mistake of Andrew’s ill-spent life is in closing himself off from the truth and believing it to be a lie.
(Wonder if the gold and silver trees lasted. The Dwarfs stripped off the leaves, but Aslan’s Song was still reverberating, so maybe they kept growing?)

[Swanwhite]

@Hobbit Now that you mention it, I don't think I had noticed how much the pair fought. Kind of answers the question of
why they don't wind up married to each other despite a unique life experience, and the reader's tendency to pair up characters.

But Aravis and Cor!

I'm still convinced that if Lewis had written MN first he would have had them get married. It's almost my head canon that they get married when they reconnect after LWW as friends of Narnia. The children still call her Miss Plummer, but I can ignore that

If Eustace and Jill fought less it was because Puddleglum was there to stop them. If Aravis and Cor fought less it was the presence of the horses and the fact that Aravis didn't usually stoop to quarrelling with the peasant

[hobbit_of_narnia]

@Kristi: Aww, thank you for your comments on my drawings! It's been a long time since I did any Narnia fanart, so I'm having a great time this readthrough, and I'm glad that the results are good.
(Also there's a graphic novel of MN??)

@Swanwhite: I think that your poem for the most recent chapters is my favorite of yours so far this time.

@Ariel: "Maybe [Jadis] would [marry] for political advantage, but I don’t imagine it would last long (as in, “I’m pretty sure she’d either enslave or kill the husband”)." Jadis is basically a spider. You heard it here first, folks.
Also I was thinking the exact same thing about the toffee tree! I don't know much about pollination, so that would be the only reason I can imagine it not turning into a whole forest. But again, I don't know a lot about how fruit trees work.
(I...I always kind of felt like the Phoenix is basically a conscience check, keeping people whose consciences are weak but not entirely dead from falling the whole way.)

@Swanwhite: I think the difference between how Cor and Aravis fight and how Polly and Digory fight is that Cor and Aravis didn't start off being friends. They expected from the beginning to be basically enemies, thrown together by accident and rather forced to tolerate each other minimally. The friendship advanced very stealthily as they learned to trust each other, but they weren't friends exactly until nearer the end of the book, and it was all uphill so it's more encouraging (for me, anyway) to read. Polly and Digory, on the other hand, became friends basically right away and then continued to aggressively insult each other; Digory even physically bullies Polly at one point. The whole time they're still supposed to be "friends", but it's rather like watching a pre-teen drama where two girls keep swearing they're best friends to each other in the morning, swearing they'll never speak again in the afternoon, and then swearing all is forgiven and they'll never fight again in the evening. It just reminds me of my sister's dynamics with her friends when she was younger; I couldn't keep up with whom she was talking to or not at any given time.
As for Jill and Eustace, their arguments seem more superficial and brought on by more severe circumstances but when it actually comes to anything important they can agree on things pretty easily. I imagine that this is because Eustace has far more chill than Digory and Jill is more competent than Polly, even though they are younger during their first adventure together (according to my research).


(Wow, I think this is my longest post so far this summer, and I didn't even need my drawings from today to help it along!)

[Ajnos]

Finished! Huzzah. (I'm a little proud of myself because this is the first time in years I've actually read the book we were doing - vs listening to an audio book on the daily commute - with the excuse that I was working on my PhD those previous years )

Gonna make a bunch of random comments, mostly replies to previous comments. More journal will come in time (keep bugging me if it doesn't).

Ariel: Yes, the nose exchange with the elephant and bulldog is great. Wow, that line "in despair he looked up at his face" is powerful; hadn't thought about it. The thing about them remembering the signs is really interesting. But to be fair to Jill and co., these guys had less than a day of travel to remember them and they were far less cryptic and the adventure (if it could even be called an adventure) less distracting.

On the cabby/cabby spelling, it seems to be a general variation rather than British vs American from what I can tell. I think most countries say "taxi drivers" now.

Cleander: (and others). I think, regarding the cabby's faith, he believes in God and is a church-goer. But his belief seems to mimic those of many nominal Christians who haven't understood the importance of grace over works. I think Kristi's right that many would have been regular church-goers in that day anyway, but his faith seems a bit more real than that. (I met people in England with the kind of faith he has - though I dare say we find them everywhere - and can picture the kind of ideas he had). Aslan says to him: "You know me better than you think you know, and you shall live to know me better yet." He's a little bit like Emeth - looking for God and wanting to serve him, but has not yet understood the truth completely.

Kristi: Did you mean you thought there were other "what-ifs" driving one mad in Narnia or elsewhere? For some reason, this put me in mind of the scene in VDT where Lucy does give in to temptation (reading the spell to find out what her friends think of her) and then she regrets that she did it. That's more like what Digory does - she would have been better resisting her curiosity.

On the truth of the back-story of Charn, I think we can pretty much take it for granted that Jadis is lying in parts. She lies about everything (including being a "daughter of Adam" in LWW). It seems from the hall of statues' faces that the culture had deteriorated over time and was already quite bad by Jadis' day (though I still want to know how long-lived they were because she talks as though she'd already been around a really long time before the deplorable word). I have a bit of an idea of my own headncannon for the back story that I'm supposed to work in to my Susan Fic (spoiler alert: it makes the Atlantis connection more overt). I was a bit worried in reading this that some of it might be inconsistent with what we are told. I can probably brush what Jadis says off as lies but can't ignore what Aslan says of Charn in the last chapter.

On why Polly and Digory don't get married: I was thinking when reading the hall of statues scene, when Digory is so mean to Polly and behaves so Andrew-ish, "this is probably why they never marry." But then I read the bit where she tells Aslan she has forgiven him which spoils the argument. Except that maybe she has forgiven him on the whole, and shows that by wanting to accompany him on the errand and by their relationship at the end. But maybe she can never quite respect him enough to see him as husband material because of that incident. Although part of me always wants to ship characters like them, I kinda like that we get some stories where they are just good friends. Sometimes that's how life works. (Like Jo and Laurie in Little Women; I've cried so many times over them but always decide in the end that it is right).

On the question of whether Jadis had any real intention of marrying the great magician who woke her: I think she probably never seriously intended it, but if he did turn out to be more powerful than her, she might have tried to play her cards right to work an "alliance". Anyone of lesser power than her she probably intended to make a subject, possibly pretending interest at the beginning to see how much she could use him. Another random question on her offering to share the throne with Digory: What was her intention in such a promise and tempting him? What benefit did she think he could bring to her? Did she know the purpose of his errand and was she trying to thwart that? (I suspect she did not know - unless eating the fruit somehow gave her that knowledge; it may have had a bit of a knowledge-of-good-and-evil effect to it). Or was her goal just to see another being fall? Was it pure retribution/hatred of Digory?

Ariel: I don't have much more to say on the question of the "curse of Adam" than what others have said, but I think point of the thistles were as donkey food (which made them a good thing). The fact they were probably also thorny, is something we can't avoid like bees stinging (and dying) and other things we associate with the fall. The problem is that it's rather difficult to write a world where there are no "effects of the fall" because it would be so unrecognisable to us (Lewis gets close in Perelandra and, it is strange). I think we can kind of accept that the sons of Adam bring the curse with them. It might seem unfair to the Narnians but our animals suffer for our fall and I think Lewis had a clear philosophy of mankind being on a different standing than animals, that man's relationship with God is different from that of animals, but that they have to live in the situations we inhabit. (Okay....getting tired and trailing off a bit there - hope it kinda makes sense).

Ariel: I also wondered about whether the toffee tree and gold and silver trees had any offspring. Hobbit is right the pollination might be a problem, but if the toffees have already grown fruit which have seeds, I *think* we get to bypass pollination (though I also don't know exactly how that works) - also this is the land where a lamppost can grow from a piece of one. Regardless, by the time of LWW, I think all three had gone because the apple tree itself is destroyed. The toffee one maybe stands a better chance being so far from Narnia proper - there might be a toffee forest after all.

I've always thought the Phoenix was Aslan himself but was less sure reading it this time. I think he is there as a warning but only to those who heed it. Jadis either didn't see him or willfully ignored him. I remember we had a discussion here once about whether there were any representations of the Holy Spirit in Narnia (since Aslan is the Son and the Emperor-Beyond-the-See the Father). It seems the phoenix would be a good candidate for representing the Spirit. That goes with what Hobbit said about it being a conscience. And with the fire-links, that lines up quite neatly.

Finally, going back to something Luthien said about the passage where Jadis rides the cab and linking it to the quote: "She thought the Witch must be someone out od a circus and she did not approve of bare arms."

We already know the royal house of Charn took pride in its magic, but what else did they do in their spare time? Perhaps Aunt Lettie was closer to the truth than she knew.

This made me smile because I always associate Charn with Atlantis and my image of Atlantis was formed early on from my reading Stephen Lawhead's Taliesin*. His Atlantean culture is inspired very much by that of Minoan Crete where we know they practiced some kind of acrobatic bull-dancing (and a main character in Taliesin is a princess who is also a bull-dancer). So now I have a head-cannon in which Jadis was a bull-dancer in her youth.

(*Disclaimer: I would rate Taliesin at the least as PG-13. Not recommended to younger readers or endorsed by TLC)

[cleander]

Wow. This went fast! (I say that, but I literally finished Prince Caspian in about 3 days a couple months ago. )
Some random closing thoughts:
- I thought it interesting that Jadis relies on emotional attacks while tempting Digory. It reminded me that logic isn't exactly Satan's strongpoint; his arguments never hold up under any honest scrutiny, whereas he can manipulate a person's emotions to justify anything without question. It's also funny to hear Jadis call Digory a "pitiless boy" after she slaughters an entire universe in cold blood.
- The reward Digory receives comes only after he seems to have given up all hope on it. He does Aslan's bidding, looking for no reward, and gets his mother's cure in the end. Forsake your life and you will find it, I guess.
- I remember not knowing at first what to make of Andrew's use of "dem." (CONTENT WARNING: not really though ) I guess that word sounded like outright swearing to me, and in a Christian-themed kid's book that seemed just a little out of place. In the audiobook version Kenneth Branagh also makes it sound a bit like the actual....word, which also bugged me a bit. Much, much later I realized that in England "dem" is an equivalent to "darn," so I suppose it's OK... though if I ever read this book out loud to my nephews, I'll probably just change it to "darn" just to be safe.
(Then again, the non-euphemistic term could really apply to Jadis, so perhaps that's what Lewis was thinking, similar to his use of it to describe certain heretical fallacies refuted in Mere Christianity. )
@ Ajnos: At least we can take comfort in the fact that Frank does indeed come to know Aslan better, and dies a spiritual bulwark of his country. Regardless of his somewhat mixed-up theology earlier in life.
Also, I LOVE the idea of Jadis being a bull dancer! She seems like the kind of person for it. If the Netflix series gets super-expansive, they need to put that in there!
-I wonder if the nymph and river-god blood had any effect on the appearance of early Narnia royalty... perhaps they looked slightly leafy and branchy in a certain light, or had really peely skin that came off like bark...
- I would love a few epilogue scenes in the Netflix production featuring the planting of the second tree and the building of the wardrobe. Maybe a post-credits scene?...
Well, that's about it for now. I may or may not come up with a poem later on, but until then, it's been good reading and discussing with everyone! Further up and further in! FOR NARNIA AND FOR ASLAN!

[Ariel.of.Narnia]

@Hobbit: lol, Jadis the spider! Hadn’t thought to make the comparison, but yeah, that’s exactly what I was getting at!
(Also, I think you should do all seven books as graphic novels! )

@Ajjie and Hobbit: I did wonder if the phoenix could maybe be Narnia’s Holy Spirit for the exact same reason. I know I’ve been thinking of Aslan’s breath possibly being the Spirit (an idea put forth by someone else, I wanna day Wilf?), but the Spirit doesn’t have to take a single form either.

@Ajjie: I absolutely acknowledge that Digory’s journey was quicker and easier than Jill’s by a long shot. I only bring up the difference because Lewis never explicitly says that Jill shared the signs with her companions (even though, as I said, they seem to have at least a working knowledge).
Nice comparison of Frank and Emeth.
Jadis’ (probable) marriage tactics make sense to me, the way you phrase ‘em.
I think offering Digory the throne is simply an offer of position and power, which is appealing to many. And if the implication is that he could have power like hers, then he’d be “god-like” in a sense, kinda like how Satan said Adam and Eve would be like God if they ate the fruit. I rather doubt Jadis knew what Aslan was going to do with the apple, but I’m confident that she knew that it would mean bad news for her, as she’s aware of a different and stronger magic than hers. And now that the rest of the apples are abhorrent to her, she likely wanted to 1) keep the apple from Aslan (again, bad news for her if he gets it), and 2) suck someone else into the curse she’s just entered. Satan was cast out of Heaven and he’s not too keen on any of us getting in either.
Good point about writing a world without the effects of the Fall and about man being above animals. (And yeah, Perelandra was kinda weird like that ‘cause that’s not what we know.)

@cleander: I hadn’t really realized the emotional impact of Digory’s temptation (even though Lewis makes the emotional aspect pretty clear through Digory’s reactions).
Nice parsing down of Digory’s reward!
Eh, yeah... it’s a problematic word. I think I’m more okay with it than I should be just because it took me a while to even realize what it actually was and it looks so different anyway.... Wouldn’t repeat it around kids though.
That is an interesting thought. I also wonder if that has any sort of ramifications on “Adam’s flesh and Adam’s bone”. Though... I guess not. Even apart from the kings between Frank’s children and Jadis (ie: human half-breeds), there’s also Rilian who’s at least a quarter Star, if not half. But then... Jadis is supposedly connected to Adam through Lilith (which is a whole other issue, but anyway (I say! That means Charn, or at least that like of kings we see, came about after our world began. And that someone(s) from our world stumbled into that at some point.)), so maybe that’s why she makes use of that to claim the throne of Narnia? (Mr Beaver pooh-poohs this as an illegitimate claim, so perhaps it’s not so much a claim to Adam that counts as it is one of a claim to both Adam and Eve?) Aaaaaanyway. I’m done playing with that can of worms for the time being.



Last chapter!


“... such a sweetness and power rolled about them and over them and entered them that they felt they had never really been happy or wise or good, or even alive and awake, before.” Between this feeling and the silver apple, it sounds an awful lot like the True Narnia... which makes sense, of course, what with Aslan’s living presence and the Edenic nature of the garden.

Who were the first citizens of Archenland, I wonder? By HHB, it seems to be populated by a human citizenry, not one of creatures. Did more humans come from our world, as the Telmarines did? Did Narnians follow the first king over the border (or already live there), and then phase out over time for a human population? Was Archenland a sort of “South Narnia” for a time? What drove Frank’s second son from home to set up a new nation? (I’d be tempted to say something about Adam’s son Cain, but I’m seriously hoping that Frank and Helen’s kids weren’t at all like that.) So many questions and no answers!

How much do you suppose Uncle Andrew actually remembers of his adventure in another world? He clearly remembers Jadis as a “dem fine woman” for a long time (I imagine he romanticizes the memory and downplays/ignores the nastiest bits) and he certainly learned his lesson about dabbling in magic, but does he remember the Wood or Narnia or Aslan or Narnia’s creation (and the lamppost-tree) or the whole ordeal of having been planted and caged by animals?

And, coming around full circle, Digory grows up to be what Uncle Andrew could have been: a wise and respected scholar and world traveller who satiated his curiosities with wholesome pursuits and who never forgot Aslan and His grace and purity.

[Swanwhite]

Chapter 15

“You need no rings when I am with you.”

Is perhaps my favourite line in the book. The moment is a demonstration of Aslan’s sovereignty, and his power beyond the magic contrivances of any world. The sufficiency of Aslan providing for them is beautiful.

I also like that my namesake, the housemaid is still having a splendid day I fancy if I managed to transport myself into the story to observe events as she does (knowing full well everything turns out alright) I would also have a splendid day. Perhaps I will pretend that I did that and she is me

It is such an excessively happy ending. Mabel Kirke getting well again, and all the heap of blessings on top of that give me great delight.

I partly listened to it by Audio book, and partly read from my copy that my favourite band sent me. The Gray Havens had a thing in their kickstarter rewards one time where they would send you a C. S. Lewis book of your choice. I happened to have lost my copy of Magician's Nephew and so chose that It's my only chronicle that I have with coloured illustrations.

[hobbit_of_narnia]

(Okay but aside from the in-story reasons that Polly and Digory didn't get married, I think the #1 reason is that Digory lives alone in LWW, aside from the Macready. I don't think Lewis wanted to say that Polly had died between MN and LWW, because of the target age of his readers.)

@Ajie, about Jadis's tempting DIgory: I'm quite sure that she rather knew his errand...somewhat. She knew he was there for Aslan; she wanted to see Him suffer, I think.

@Ariel: (Awwwwww.... I'd love to make a graphic novel of Narnia; I dunno if it'll ever happen, what with copyright and all that, but wow. Can you imagine how fun that would be...)

@Swanwhite, about your copy of the book: ....that is amazing.


I have two thoughts from the last few chapters:
First, Jadis says "Then she will fall asleep—think of that; hours of sweet natural sleep, without pain, without drugs." How did she know about drugs? Did they have them in Charn? Even if so, how did she know they have them in our world? I'd think she would assume that our world was too primitive for advancements like that.
Second, just a little thing I noticed for the first time: bananas apparently grew here in the west of Narnia (they're among the things the animals gave "Brandy" to eat). I guess Shift was born in the wrong era.

I do have all three of my last drawings finished. I have not, however, had a chance to scan them yet. They should be up within 24 hours, though.

[Ariel.of.Narnia]

“Shift was born in the wrong era.”