I've been thinking about the structure of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader and how much it doesn't fit into the traditional movie structure. If someone were watching a direct adaptation on film it would feel like a lot of plotlines were introduced and then dropped or wrapped up too quickly. All these sea people with spears, is that leading somewhere? No, nope we just never see them again. I don't think this is an actual flaw in the book, but it doesn't work in a film because of viewers' expectations.
I think most of the flaws in the Walden film were bad attempts to solve this problem. The obvious solution is to make it a miniseries, but it might be an interesting thought experiment to consider how you would adapt it if you did have to make it into a single story arc. This might require some drastic changes, but I think it would be possible to do that while still retaining more of the essence of the book than the Walden film did.
I'm going to give this some thought before I post more, but I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
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knightofnarnia
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Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
Swanwhite if "this" where diffrent then maybe the "story" would be diffrent is a difficult road to see. I've finished a biography of Martin Luther the Reformer and made the speculation that if the Dominicans where less hateful of the Augustines (Tetzel was a Dominican monk and Martin Luther an Augustine monk) and vise versa then the Protestant Reformation may never have gotten off the ground 
. So we could form specultions all day about how we might have gotten a diffrent Walden Media film but we would not be any closer to have a diffrent story. At least we still have the books 
. So we could form specultions all day about how we might have gotten a diffrent Walden Media film but we would not be any closer to have a diffrent story. At least we still have the books And whoever will be chief shall be servant of all (Mark 10:44 my version)
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HermitoftheNorthernMarch
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Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
I'll need to think about this but my initial thought is yes, it could, but it would probably skip half of the reasons that we like the story and feel even more condensed than Peter Jackson's LOTR movie adaptions.
If we emphasized the relationship between Reepicheep and Eustace we could have that arc play out. I mean, just because Eustace is undragoned early doesn't mean that he doesn't have a lot of potential for character development. The movie tried to delay this by only having him undragoned at the end, which was interesting but there is no reason to repeat it.
Or maybe if it delved into Caspian's emotions more. The 7 lords he is looking for are some of the people closest to his father. Even though he is 17, he probably still wants to know what his father would say to him. Every time they find another lord, he is closer to finding out what his parents were really like. We do see him make a number of moral and emotional decisions, such as ousting Gumpus, praying for a safe voyage, being tempted by gold, and almost abdicating the throne of Narnia to see Aslan's country like Reepicheep.
Reepicheep has been his moral compass through the story, so he decides that he needs to follow Reepicheep. However, this is not what Aslan wants him to do. Caspian thought that morally, spiritually, he should copy his wiser and older friend, Reepicheep. He doesn't understand that Aslan has different ways for them to follow him. He's like a weak Christian who has talent and joins a worship band without actually having the depth of faith he needs to keep his faith when he's on the road and there is pressure to conform to secular actions. He thinks, "I'm doing something great. I have talent. This must be what God wants for me! I'll be like [this famous Christian singer]." When what God really wants is his devotion.
(I have digressed so much with this thread, sorry.)
If we emphasized the relationship between Reepicheep and Eustace we could have that arc play out. I mean, just because Eustace is undragoned early doesn't mean that he doesn't have a lot of potential for character development. The movie tried to delay this by only having him undragoned at the end, which was interesting but there is no reason to repeat it.
Or maybe if it delved into Caspian's emotions more. The 7 lords he is looking for are some of the people closest to his father. Even though he is 17, he probably still wants to know what his father would say to him. Every time they find another lord, he is closer to finding out what his parents were really like. We do see him make a number of moral and emotional decisions, such as ousting Gumpus, praying for a safe voyage, being tempted by gold, and almost abdicating the throne of Narnia to see Aslan's country like Reepicheep.
Reepicheep has been his moral compass through the story, so he decides that he needs to follow Reepicheep. However, this is not what Aslan wants him to do. Caspian thought that morally, spiritually, he should copy his wiser and older friend, Reepicheep. He doesn't understand that Aslan has different ways for them to follow him. He's like a weak Christian who has talent and joins a worship band without actually having the depth of faith he needs to keep his faith when he's on the road and there is pressure to conform to secular actions. He thinks, "I'm doing something great. I have talent. This must be what God wants for me! I'll be like [this famous Christian singer]." When what God really wants is his devotion.
(I have digressed so much with this thread, sorry.)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really knew Me, you would know My Father as well." - John 14:6-7a
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Ariel.of.Narnia
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Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
Don’t know how I wasn’t notified about this thread, but it looks as though I’ve found it by accident.
I’d have to put more thought into it, but my initial reaction is this: they need a focus point. They did try to do this in two ways: the green mist for the plot and temptation for the theme. I get why they tried to make a unifying plot point and am quite good with the temptation theme concept. (Actually, now that I think of it, there’s another theme of living up to someone else’s legacy. But given how many years it took me to find that, maybe it wasn’t done so well.) The trouble was that the green mist was a poor unifier (in my opinion) and the temptation theme... plays out a little weird in spots (and doesn’t come off as being central so much as “there”).
So how to address the episodic nature of VDT? It’s tricky, and I don’t claim to have a good answer. But between the existing themes and the things Hermit has suggested, I’m thinking that if one were to focus on character over plot, maybe we’d have something stronger. Obviously, you don’t want to lose the plot, but something like what Hermit was saying about Caspian wanting to find the lords: perhaps if he had motive other than “find them and avenge if necessary”, something more personal, then there’d be a stronger connection to both the quest and to Caspian himself.
Reep’s desire for Aslan’s Country feels side-quest-like in the movie, quite the downplay from the book. That needs a major boost. So what if one were to explore the “why” of Reep’s motive - beyond “this lullaby works on my heart”.
And what if, in bringing to the foreground Reep’s quest, it clearly affects decisions that directly impact both the plot and the other characters? Taking Hermit’s example of Caspian wanting to learn about his dad, perhaps he gets frustrated that the three lords after Bern are dead (and three others are asleep), and that’s half of his chance at connecting to his dad gone... and then Reep comes in with something about the wisdom of the King over all high kings, which Caspian takes to heart, similarly desiring Aslan’s Country. I dunno. Now I feel like I’m rambling, lol.
I’d have to put more thought into it, but my initial reaction is this: they need a focus point. They did try to do this in two ways: the green mist for the plot and temptation for the theme. I get why they tried to make a unifying plot point and am quite good with the temptation theme concept. (Actually, now that I think of it, there’s another theme of living up to someone else’s legacy. But given how many years it took me to find that, maybe it wasn’t done so well.) The trouble was that the green mist was a poor unifier (in my opinion) and the temptation theme... plays out a little weird in spots (and doesn’t come off as being central so much as “there”).
So how to address the episodic nature of VDT? It’s tricky, and I don’t claim to have a good answer. But between the existing themes and the things Hermit has suggested, I’m thinking that if one were to focus on character over plot, maybe we’d have something stronger. Obviously, you don’t want to lose the plot, but something like what Hermit was saying about Caspian wanting to find the lords: perhaps if he had motive other than “find them and avenge if necessary”, something more personal, then there’d be a stronger connection to both the quest and to Caspian himself.
Reep’s desire for Aslan’s Country feels side-quest-like in the movie, quite the downplay from the book. That needs a major boost. So what if one were to explore the “why” of Reep’s motive - beyond “this lullaby works on my heart”.
And what if, in bringing to the foreground Reep’s quest, it clearly affects decisions that directly impact both the plot and the other characters? Taking Hermit’s example of Caspian wanting to learn about his dad, perhaps he gets frustrated that the three lords after Bern are dead (and three others are asleep), and that’s half of his chance at connecting to his dad gone... and then Reep comes in with something about the wisdom of the King over all high kings, which Caspian takes to heart, similarly desiring Aslan’s Country. I dunno. Now I feel like I’m rambling, lol.
knight and scribe
lyrics from TobyMac's "New World"
lyrics from TobyMac's "New World"
Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
"The things in the picture were moving. It didn't look at all like a cinema either; the colours were too real and clean and out-of-doors for that."
I find this sentence from Dawn Treader to be a bit funny, particularly because Lewis takes a pot shot at movies and makes it clear that he doesn't care if any of this ends up translating into a cinematic experience. I think all of the comments so far are correct, the story does not translate cleanly into film. The Walden film did not do too well at the box office (50% RT score, 53 Metacritic score, 6.3/10 IMDb user score), and when I scrolled through some reviews saying things like "lacks magical resonance." "meandering storyline," and "a strong central narrative force," I have a really difficult time disagreeing.
With a book, you can take as much time as you want to tell the story, as long as you keep it interesting and consistent. With a screenplay, you get two hours at best. One source tells me that Dawn Treader comes in at 53,960 words - in comparison, the average screenplay falls between 30,000 to 40,000 at a push.
I'm pretty convinced that the only way to tell this story - well really, all of Narnia - in any justifiable way is to make it a TV series. Give each chapter or two an episode and take advantage of Dawn Treader's story structure to tell a more serialized "encounter of the week" tale. The way that The Mandalorian, for instance, tells a new story each week but still keeps the underlying threads and motivations running through each episode is a great example of this structure at work.
However, if I just absolutely had to make Dawn Treader into a screenplay, I'd start with Eustace. Act I would have to begin with his awful behavior and attitude, and with the limits of movie runtime, I'd be so bold as to frame nearly every major event from his perspective. Assuming Wardrobe and Caspian did their jobs, we'd be familiar enough with Edmund and Lucy and let their moments at Deathwater Island and Coriakin's Island speak for themselves. Since Eustace has the biggest arc and is also the audience surrogate in a way, letting the audience understand Narnia through his questions, interactions, and need for explanation, his role is perfect for carrying the story. This would work well for the starting events of the story, including the painting, Lord Bern, and some scenes where Reepicheep explains his interest in the eventual goal - Aslan's country.
Act II, traditionally, is where the conflict fully manifests and the characters reach a breaking point. At the risk of skewing Lewis' vision, I would start rearranging the events of the story in order from wonderful to worse. This would create a sense of continuous peril that brings the audience to a breaking point with the Treader's crew. So maybe right after we're done with Lord Bern, we go into a minor storm - just to tease the audience. Eustace's attitude really sinks during that part, so we can keep our character motivations going. Then we go to Coriakin's island for one last moment of whimsy, but with a foreboding note from Coriakin about what lies ahead. Then, in order of increasing stakes, follow that with Deathwater Island, the sea serpent, the Dark Island, etc. Take the color palette of the film from the brighter and warmer and grander colors of Act I and slowly peel away the warmth for colder and paler colors. Have them reach Ramandu's island and receive their call to get to the end of the world - but it's foreboding, grim, and borders on exhausting.
The climax of Act II needs an antagonist and a low point. If Eustace is our protagonist, of sorts (as we are now focusing on his redemption arc), have Caspian be the antagonist. If Eustace represents cynicism, unbridled pragmatism, and know-it-all-ism, Caspain should double-down on the adventurous spirit and optimism in the book. Have them clash - repeatedly - and have their final straw be at Aslan's table. Eustace wants to give up on all of the misery, Caspian calls him a selfish coward. Now we have the defining conflict of the story in one single scene - Eustace's innate desire to be something more, even if every other part of him wants off the ship. And as we finish Act II on the dragon's island, we have Eustace's shining moment.
So now as Act III closes our story, we finish the main quest - get to Aslan's country. Eustace and Caspian make peace and vow together to get there. Edmund and Lucy support their cousin and his newfound purpose. Reepicheep keeps the audience invested in the mystery of Aslan's country. Now the darkness of Act II continues to fade and the full wonder and awe of the final stretch kicks into overdrive. Go all-out with the colors, the brightness, the contrast to the darker times from before. If your music in Act II was grim and foreboding, your music in Act III makes you wanna stand at the very front of the Treader and shout "there is the utter East!" at the top of your lungs.
And as we end our film, Reepicheep goes onwards, Aslan speaks with Lucy and Edmund, and before they all go home, have Aslan reiterate his words to Eustace from his dragon moment. This is the close of Eustace's story, and effectively, the close of the film. Sure, they'll need to end the film back in England, but all of our plot points are resolved in this moment.
At the least, this is how I'd approach the book-to-film adaptation. Granted, some details would need to be cut due to time (Lucy watching the sea people is something I feel would not advance the plot well), but I think this plan, at the least, respects the spirit and themes of Lewis' work and gives good emphasis to the one character with the greatest stakes in the story.
I find this sentence from Dawn Treader to be a bit funny, particularly because Lewis takes a pot shot at movies and makes it clear that he doesn't care if any of this ends up translating into a cinematic experience. I think all of the comments so far are correct, the story does not translate cleanly into film. The Walden film did not do too well at the box office (50% RT score, 53 Metacritic score, 6.3/10 IMDb user score), and when I scrolled through some reviews saying things like "lacks magical resonance." "meandering storyline," and "a strong central narrative force," I have a really difficult time disagreeing.
With a book, you can take as much time as you want to tell the story, as long as you keep it interesting and consistent. With a screenplay, you get two hours at best. One source tells me that Dawn Treader comes in at 53,960 words - in comparison, the average screenplay falls between 30,000 to 40,000 at a push.
I'm pretty convinced that the only way to tell this story - well really, all of Narnia - in any justifiable way is to make it a TV series. Give each chapter or two an episode and take advantage of Dawn Treader's story structure to tell a more serialized "encounter of the week" tale. The way that The Mandalorian, for instance, tells a new story each week but still keeps the underlying threads and motivations running through each episode is a great example of this structure at work.
However, if I just absolutely had to make Dawn Treader into a screenplay, I'd start with Eustace. Act I would have to begin with his awful behavior and attitude, and with the limits of movie runtime, I'd be so bold as to frame nearly every major event from his perspective. Assuming Wardrobe and Caspian did their jobs, we'd be familiar enough with Edmund and Lucy and let their moments at Deathwater Island and Coriakin's Island speak for themselves. Since Eustace has the biggest arc and is also the audience surrogate in a way, letting the audience understand Narnia through his questions, interactions, and need for explanation, his role is perfect for carrying the story. This would work well for the starting events of the story, including the painting, Lord Bern, and some scenes where Reepicheep explains his interest in the eventual goal - Aslan's country.
Act II, traditionally, is where the conflict fully manifests and the characters reach a breaking point. At the risk of skewing Lewis' vision, I would start rearranging the events of the story in order from wonderful to worse. This would create a sense of continuous peril that brings the audience to a breaking point with the Treader's crew. So maybe right after we're done with Lord Bern, we go into a minor storm - just to tease the audience. Eustace's attitude really sinks during that part, so we can keep our character motivations going. Then we go to Coriakin's island for one last moment of whimsy, but with a foreboding note from Coriakin about what lies ahead. Then, in order of increasing stakes, follow that with Deathwater Island, the sea serpent, the Dark Island, etc. Take the color palette of the film from the brighter and warmer and grander colors of Act I and slowly peel away the warmth for colder and paler colors. Have them reach Ramandu's island and receive their call to get to the end of the world - but it's foreboding, grim, and borders on exhausting.
The climax of Act II needs an antagonist and a low point. If Eustace is our protagonist, of sorts (as we are now focusing on his redemption arc), have Caspian be the antagonist. If Eustace represents cynicism, unbridled pragmatism, and know-it-all-ism, Caspain should double-down on the adventurous spirit and optimism in the book. Have them clash - repeatedly - and have their final straw be at Aslan's table. Eustace wants to give up on all of the misery, Caspian calls him a selfish coward. Now we have the defining conflict of the story in one single scene - Eustace's innate desire to be something more, even if every other part of him wants off the ship. And as we finish Act II on the dragon's island, we have Eustace's shining moment.
So now as Act III closes our story, we finish the main quest - get to Aslan's country. Eustace and Caspian make peace and vow together to get there. Edmund and Lucy support their cousin and his newfound purpose. Reepicheep keeps the audience invested in the mystery of Aslan's country. Now the darkness of Act II continues to fade and the full wonder and awe of the final stretch kicks into overdrive. Go all-out with the colors, the brightness, the contrast to the darker times from before. If your music in Act II was grim and foreboding, your music in Act III makes you wanna stand at the very front of the Treader and shout "there is the utter East!" at the top of your lungs.
And as we end our film, Reepicheep goes onwards, Aslan speaks with Lucy and Edmund, and before they all go home, have Aslan reiterate his words to Eustace from his dragon moment. This is the close of Eustace's story, and effectively, the close of the film. Sure, they'll need to end the film back in England, but all of our plot points are resolved in this moment.
At the least, this is how I'd approach the book-to-film adaptation. Granted, some details would need to be cut due to time (Lucy watching the sea people is something I feel would not advance the plot well), but I think this plan, at the least, respects the spirit and themes of Lewis' work and gives good emphasis to the one character with the greatest stakes in the story.
"I look into the sky / I’m crying out Your name / I made my mistakes but You forgave me"
- Fit For A King, "Oblivion", Dark Skies (2018)
- Fit For A King, "Oblivion", Dark Skies (2018)
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Ariel.of.Narnia
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Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
Huh... I can definitely see the direction your idea’s going, Chris! Eustace is certainly a good character to center the story: he is a POV character (and he does have his diary entries too), and yes, certainly has the greatest character arc. I’d have to be sold on a couple points, but with good execution, I think I could enjoy an adaptation that looked something like that.
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lyrics from TobyMac's "New World"
lyrics from TobyMac's "New World"
Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
Not a digression at all! That's exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. There really are some of those seeds of a longer story sown that could be fleshed out in an adaptation. Which is not to say that it would be better than the episodes in the book, but it could be good in its own way. Figuring out how all the different things Caspian learns fits together for him intrigues me.HermitoftheNorthernMarch wrote: ↑Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:42 am
(I have digressed so much with this thread, sorry.)
I'm also curious about Rynelf's story. We get little glimpses of the kind of person he is throughout the book, but I would love to know more about him.
I really like the idea of Caspian figuring out what it means to be king without having known his father as king and that being his personal connection to finding his Father's friends. You see a variety of missteps and lessons he learns about this throughout the voyage.
And I like what you add to the concept @Ariel.
I agree @Chris that Eustace's arc is the most powerful. And I like the idea of it getting darker and more intense so that Aslan's country is all the more glorious by contrast at the end.
In the end I agree that it should be adapted as a series, but exploring a different structure for it makes me appreciate the elements in the story in a different way and I enjoy hearing your takes on the question.
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jasmine_tarkheena
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Re: Could VDT be restructured as a single story arc?
I like Walden movie of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader fine, though it's not perfect.
I think the main issue I had with it was they took the plot so far from the original source. The book is about Caspian finding seven lost lords and Reepicheep longing to see the world's end. It's kind of like an emotional journey for the characters, and there are obstacles they had to overcome. However, Walden made it about "saving the world", like finding seven swords to fight the Green Mist.
I don't know if Netflix will make into one movie or an episodic series. I think there are different ways that Netflix could do improve on the story arch.
I think the main issue I had with it was they took the plot so far from the original source. The book is about Caspian finding seven lost lords and Reepicheep longing to see the world's end. It's kind of like an emotional journey for the characters, and there are obstacles they had to overcome. However, Walden made it about "saving the world", like finding seven swords to fight the Green Mist.
I don't know if Netflix will make into one movie or an episodic series. I think there are different ways that Netflix could do improve on the story arch.