What always said about Hans' non-ooc-ness. 🙂

Ok so hello again!
BTW this argument on the Hans side is by both Ela and I, just so you know 😉

So this is going to be another long post. I should really keep up so I don't have to do this.

First I am going to talk about the song "Love is an Open Door" that seems to be used a lot to account for Hans's evil side. Truly, the song really has no basis to verify that Hans was evil the whole time. Yes I agree he does say "I've been searching my whole life to find my own place" and "But with you I have found my place" (I sing these songs practically every day so I have memorized them) But like I said I find nothing wrong with it really, unless you find something entirely underhanded in Anna as well? Because it would be unfair to only go by one part of the song as there are two singing it 🙂 Anna as well as Hans are being selfish in this song and if you use this song to base a character I guess we will have to do it with Anna as well. Anna sings "All my life has been a series of doors in my face, and then suddenly I bump into you" So basically she is speaking of being shut out being alone and unwanted, just as Hans was. Then she goes on to sing about Hans being her open door, which ultimately was selfish because she didn't know what true love was and only really wanted to marry Hans so she wouldn't be alone anymore. So if she had married Hans and really didn't love him (because she obviously didn't) and wanted him only as an open door isn't that like Hans? So unless you call Anna underhanded as well the song really doesn't work.

Okay, so talking about his acting abilities. Sure I guess you could say that, but he was entirely TOO good that it didn't work. As I can see no one has explained Hans and Anna's first meeting, which totally shows Hans character without him needing to "act" because he was smitten with Anna before he even knew who she was as well as very kind. Also after Hans gives Anna his plans and tells everyone that Anna is dead doesn't his acting ability change? Doesn't it actually seem more like a put on and forced then natural? If he was actually acting the whole time that wouldn't have happened.

Now on to Ann's post 🙂
Ann said:

But that's the thing: it was so UNDisney to have the "seemingly perfect" Prince Charming (Hans) come sweep the Princess off her feet, and then turn out to be the actual BADGUY of the film. To have Anna fall in love with Kristoff was different, because he didn't really care for her that much when they first met. He was awkward and clumsy, not like a normal Disney Prince.

So I must disagree entirely with this. It was a cheap twist of Disney's so that people wouldn't get up and walk out of the theatre. It was also just a way for them to accomplish what they wanted by using Hans as a springboard, I mean seriously? So then on another point, Hans is NOT the badguy! Actually the villain/badguy isn't even a human. The Badguy is Anna/Elsa's feelings, Anna causes Elsa "to go all ice crazy" and Elsa is the cause of Anna's supposed death. It is their feelings that drive the story and their feelings that are the real enemies. Hans as I said was just their stool or springboard, Disney had no idea what to do with them so they handed him a sword and switched around his character just so that Anna and Elsa could have their sister love moment 😉 Obviously they didn't know what to do considering the only punishment for Hans was to be taken back home, I mean really? After he tried to kill both the queen and princess? And Flynn is sent to the gallows for stealing a crown I mean this was obviously not thought through.
Also the whole thing about Kristoff, is very Disney considering they have done it before. If you remember Tangled and Aladdin, both Flynn and Aladdin are not Prince material just as Kristoff so it wasn't all that original. Another thing is that both Kristoff and Flynn didn't like their girls when they first met them and all three, Aladdin, Flynn, and Kristoff were orphans living on their own.

Ann said:

OF COURSE the people of Arendelle would want Hans to be their King since he took care of them so! This point when Anna gave him charge was his perfect opportunity for him to look good! It was not out of character for Hans to turn bad, because he blatantly told Anna his plot the whole time: to get a kingdom.

So I agree they would want him to be their king because he could take care of them. But, this whole thing is Anna's fault then right? Obviously so if you claim she gave him the power (which she did without his influence) it was her choice, he was trying to persuade her not to go he wasn't trying to force her out. I don't see why his want for a kingdom is BAD! If you had siblings who (just like Anna and Hans) shut you out, and all you wanted was a place of your own and people who would actually notice you would you consider yourself bad? Do you think that if you have dreams and desires that you wanted to fulfill it would make you a bad/evil person? Of course not, we all have dreams we think are unreachable and would try are hardest to achieve them, and yet because Hans wants a kingdom of his own it makes him the 'badguy' ?

Ann said:

Hans also saved Elsa because he wanted the winter to be stopped. He wanted to still make himself look good to Elsa and to everyone else. When he asks her to stop the winter, and she says she can't, a look of realization comes over him, but then he says "I'll see what I can do" when Elsa tells him that they have to let her go. He then has the perfect opportunity to kill Elsa when he claims that she "killed" Anna.

Okay, but if she had been killed by the soldier it would have stopped as well. Why would he need to make himself look good to Elsa considering the town didn't like her anyways and he had a plan to kill her? I disagree because Elsa was not going to be killed until Anna was actually proclaimed by Hans as dead. So their would have been no way to kill Elsa while remaining innocent unless Anna had died. Hans never set up Elsa freezing Anna's heart so if Anna had come back safely what could Hans do to Elsa? Nothing. Like I said Hans was just their springboard that once had a character, but then for storytelling purposes lost it.
And him killing Elsa, how do we know that he wasn't going to have a moment of guilt that he just couldn't do it despite himself? We will never know, so it would be a hard thing to dub him as evil when you never see what could have happened.
Elsa "You almost killed me" Hans "But I DIDN'T!!" 😉

Arguments on both sides, I think, are pretty valid.

First of all, yes, Elanor and Eria, the main conflict of the film is under the "man-vs-himself" category (namely, Elsa's misinterpretation of "conceal, don't feel, don't let it show" (which then adds some "man-vs-man" conflict since her actions affect everyone else and her will is in conflict with Anna's)). The Hans/Anna instant-love thing is definitely a catalyst.
And they are also right in saying that it wasn't all that well thought-out.

As Elanor and Eria say, aspiring to kingship is not automatically a bad/bad-guy thing (examples, book-Aragorn and Caspian). However, his motives (like we all agree, he was selfish) and his way of trying to achieve his goal (namely, the eventual to-be-murders of Elsa and then, conveniently, Anna) are what makes him a "baddie". Okay, yes, he was extremely kind in the way he helped Arendelle cope with the sudden winter, despite everything the annoying little Duke said. And he did prevent the Duke's henchman from shooting Elsa. His plans for arranging an "accident" for her in the future doesn't seem to jive with this.
On the other side, these, even saving Elsa with the intent to arrange an "accident" later, could have been to further gain trust, particularly from Anna. Sure, if he'd let the Duke's henchie finish Elsa off, he could still have a claim to nobility (ie: "I tried to save her, but alas! I was too late"). But it's possible that he saw this extra chance to get further into Anna's good graces (ie: "Henchie was about to kill her, but I stepped in and saved her"). The "accident" would then look like a simple accident after that and he'd act all sorrowful and comforting and stuff. It would also make his claim to the throne look more legitimate. (And if he was going for not just Anna's trust, but Elsa's also, then gaining her trust would make her less cautious around and about him, leaving her more vulnerable to whatever "accident" he might arrange.)

Now on the acting. Elanor and Eria are right in saying that his acting was forced and, frankly, not very good when he announced Anna's "death". But his smitten look and his admission to no love for Anna don't jive. "Smitten" and "love" are not necessarily synonymous. And honestly, he may have been googley-eyed prior to knowing she was the princess simply because she was pretty (or cute, anyway). (Aladdin... Philip... Ferdinand (Snow White's prince)... Charming... Eric.... Seriously. All of these guys were attracted to their princesses because of their beautiful faces and, in three of these cases, their singing voices. And none of them really have any other basis for sacrificing life and limb for their "true loves" other than that. (Arguments might be made for Aladdin and Charming, but I think it's still pretty weak there. Flynn, Shang, John Smith, and most especially Adam (the Beast) had far more chance to get to know (and therefore love) their princesses and their respective characters.)) I guess it just so happens in Hans' case, he just lucked out on making eyes at the princess and singing a (rather cute) duet with her.

Anna was foolhardy in thrusting her kingdom on Hans. (Seriously, whatever happened to councilors and regents and all that? Hans is prince of another kingdom entirely.) And yes, his being in charge was her fault. And no, he didn't force her to go or stay. I've only seen it once, so I don't remember how the dialogue goes, but it may be that, in wooing her, and maybe even in insisting on the dangers of pursuit, he might have just made himself available for the job. Obviously, he didn't know that Elsa had ice powers or that it would manifest so terrifyingly, so he wasn't thinking, "Hey, I need to make the princess love and trust me so that when we manage to get both girls out of the city, I'll be the one put in charge."
On that note, he may not have had his whole plan planned out (or possibly planned at all) when he originally showed up in Arendelle. 'cause think about it: nobody knew either of the girls except the servants that remained. The gates were shut. The logical assumption would be that both girls (not just Elsa) were recluses. The only time we know of Anna leaving the palace prior to the events of Frozen (unless this scene happened within the palace grounds, which I doubt) is when she attends her parents' memorial service. All that to say that Hans may have come with the intent to woo either one of them, but also that he may have known that it might not work on either of them, thus an unstable, incomplete plan.

So, yes, I think Disney's bad-guy development was weak, even though having a baddie be something other than some tall, imposing, black/red/purple/green, painfully obvious monster was a nice change. But, the way I see it, it boils down to this: whether or not he was somehow conflicted, he is not a "good guy" because his motives and his later actions were impure and his love for Anna was false. (Seriously, leaving her to freeze to death is sadistic. Sure, he might have been too afraid to get his hands dirty to actually kill her himself, but he didn't even have the "mercy" to put her out of her misery, never mind the love to cure her.)

(Speaking of love, I'd have counted Olaf's help with the fireplace an act of love. Particularly when he stayed put even though he knew he was melting and effectively dying. Or even Kristoff speeding Anna home to get the supposed "true love's kiss". Of course, I'm more than happy with the sisterly love. (*wonders if maybe the curing "act of love" only works with the victim performs said act? hmm...*))

Shutting up now.

THANK YOU Ariel for seeing both sides!
We wanted to make something clear as it seems people may be getting the wrong impression.
Ela and I aren't saying that Hans wasn't bad entirely. We don't agree with his choice to murder both Elsa and Anna and thought it truly discontenting. But what we are trying to say (we hope you already have this impression) is that the character of Hans doesn't flow smoothly with the movie as a whole. We don't claim Hans to be a "good guy" throughout the movie but want to express are disgust to Disney's choice of turning him into a monster.
To US it seems as though Disney created Hans as Anna's "true love" then had no idea what to do with him. The script was already thought out and mostly written and then they took into their heads that they could use Hans to fill the missing holes in the script. They chose to make it as though he was acting the whole time rather then being who he really was, accounting obviously to his horrible acting at the end. The song originally written for Hans and Anna was "You're You"(you can listen to it on YouTube, not affiliated with TLC) it had no mention of his want of a kingdom and was basically just what he thought about Anna as a person. It seems as if, to Disney, they thought the villainy of the sisters feelings weren't enough and they needed an embodiment of the evil (like Fox chose to embody the evil in VDT in the green mist) so, considering they thought he had already served his purpose, they chose Hans. The insert of Hans evil intentions (which were placed wholly at the end of the film) seemed out of place and thrust in. Basically had Hans' character seemed completed and wholly written to be evil, there would be no disgust or displeasure in the outcome.

Sorry if I sounded like I thought you meant that Hans was a good guy throughout; just noticed that it may have come across that way (whoops). I get what you're getting at though. 🙂

Honestly, I just loved the movie and I get the idea that we're way over-thinking this. 😆

I just thought this interesting. It was on Disney Wiki. Hope it is helpful in some way in the carefully thought out (as I see it) badguy plot of Hans:

This is a direct quote from Disney Wiki

One of Hans' verses subtly reveals his true intentions... "I've been searching my whole life to find my own place." As he sings this line, he gestures to Arendelle. This is a demonstration of Hans, in a sense, claiming the kingdom of Arendelle as "his place." According to Kristen Anderson-Lopez and Robert Lopez, the song's lyrics were created in such a way purposely, as it's meant to stand as Hans' official villain musical number, though disguised as a love song to keep his villainous intentions a secret until the third act of the film. However, once the truth was revealed, the song's dark side was meant to be more apparent.

@Engee, Haha I guess that's true-I think it's 'cause I have to analyze and over-analyze literature all the time... it's just a habit. >.<

I have to say (with great reluctance) that I found the plot full of holes and forced moments. I won't go into detail because I don't want to argue against anyone who enjoyed the story. The basic premise was interesting, but I think the writers just left a lot of vacant spaces. I keep thinking about all the good writers on here and on fanfic who could have smoothed things out!

I found the characters themselves appealing, though they were not well served by the story. The animation was remarkably lovely, of course, and I'll watch it again to enjoy that aspect. The subplot with Hans was very interesting; it was one element that I thought worked especially well. You can't always tell what lies behind a handsome (or pretty) face, especially if you jump to conclusions based on appearances. And dynastic hunger is indeed a characteristic of people born into certain kinds of privilege.

But for compelling storyline, it's Beauty and the Beast for me. Still so powerful!

(*high-fives Mini for going with Beauty and the Beast!* Love that one.)

I went to see Frozen (finally! It was six dollars each...such a bargain, but that's a different matter! 😀 ). I loved it so much!
But what I found most interesting is that it all comes back to Biblical messages.

For example:
Elsa was bound by fear and only love could set her free. That's exactly what the Bible says: that Jesus' sacrifice (which was love itself) is the only thing that can set us free of whatever is binding us

An obvious one was the way Anna sacrificed herself for Elsa. That's exactly what Jesus did for us when He died (and I went to see the movie just a few days before Easter! How perfect is that?!)

Those were the ones my mum and I discussed in the car.
Can you guys think of any others?

Wow, Dilly, I hadn't thought about that. You just brought a whole new meaning to the story.

Edit: After I read your post, Dilly, I was on Pinterest and came across a meme. It had Anna and Hans and said, "Love is an open door." Then below it was a picture of the tomb with the stone rolled away, and it said, "Yes, it is."

I don't think I can think of anything else but Eria actually made a music video of Elsa and Anna to the song of "You Are More", and it worked so well! The theme of sisterly love is very powerful - I found that it was a good move for Disney to do than the normal princess/prince storyline.

@Engee: Wow, that's one sweet discovery!
@Elanor: I don't suppose we could maybe see it...?

I think I'm gonna have to make a signature with that now...

Yup, I did.